Matrox MXO, part 2
(Here's Matrox MXO, Part 1 for reference.)
OK...so I finally got my hands on an Apple 23" Cinema Display (ACD) to test with the Matrox MXO against my AJA Kona LH and Sony PVM-14L5.
So I hooked up the Matrox to my Powerbook G4 1.67Ghz and to the ACD. Then I exported a video clip from my current project...the trailer I edited for The History Channel all nice and color corrected and with a variety of footage from the Varicam and HVX-200. I copied this clip over to the Powerbook, and loaded the same clip up on my G5 and put the images up on the PVM and the ACD...side by side.
Holy shit. (The picture, of course, doesn't do this justice)
Now...Jerry Hofmann told me that the MXO and the ACD would get you broadcast colors...and Wayne from Matrox, who I worked side by side with at the CalDigit booth, showed me the MXO side by side with a Panasonic HD LCD and they were identical. But I said "I won't believe it until I see it next to my HD CRT."
I believe it.
Now...first off let me state that when I first looked at the image on both it was like looking in a mirror. They were identical, only the ACD was, of course, bigger. Then my initial shock wore off and I looked closer, more critically. And I noticed that the image on the ACD was slightly greenish. I had to look close to see it, but it was there. I could see it in the white collar of the actor, and in the green of the plants (they were greener). So I loaded color bars in both and looked again. Yep...slightly greenish. I connected the MXO to my HD CRT via HD SDI out of the MXO box and compared the HD SDI signal coming from the Matrox to that of the ACD, just to see if it was the box or the monitors. The image on the ACD was still greenish in comparison. So the signal from the box is a true signal, the same I get from my Kona LH. I went into my Displays System Prefs and made sure the Matrox MXO option was selected. It was. So I needed to do something to remedy this.
I found a friend who had a monitor calibration device and software. ColorVision's Spyder 2 Pro is what he had and what I used to calibrate my monitor. Then I tried again.
I looked at the Bars first. I didn't see the green. Then I loaded the clip again and looked at the same spot. Now the image on both were nearly identical. Still just a hair greenish, but very negligible. At least to my eye. And I was scrutinizing this close. And, again, I compared images on the PVM and the MXO, with both signals coming from the MXO.
So...in conclusion, the Matrox MXO, in conjunction with an Apple 23" Cinema Display (and monitor calibration software) will get you broadcast colors that match that of an HD CRT monitor. I myself would trust this combination when color correcting my shows for broadcast.
Just to remind people about the Matrox MXO, it connects to the computer via the DVI connection. From this DVI connection the MXO can extract a broadcast video image (HD SDI, analog component, composite), two tracks of unbalanced audio and up to 8 tracks of embedded SDI audio, timecode information, and deck control. It can downconvert HD to SD in real time with proper color space conversions. Hardware acceleration of DVCPRO HD, HDV, and Final Cut Pro Dynamic RT segments to full output resolution to save processing power for other operations. Allows output from not only FCP, but Motion, After Effects and other Quicktime based applications to the monitor so that you can ensure the quality of your image. And it works on PPC and Intel Macs...and best of all, works on a laptop.
It is a low cost, yet VERY effective solution for HD monitoring and color correction. You won't see the post houses that color grade CSI, LAW & ORDER or "24" jumping all over this...they have better high end monitors to work with. But it is a very viable solution for the budget conscious who still want to produce a great broadcast quality image.
EDIT: It was asked that if you use the MXO with your, say G5 tower or Mac Pro, that you might lose the use of that monitor as your second monitor. Not necessarily. With your monitor connected to the MXO, it still passes thru a desktop image, so you can have dual monitors. But when you hit VIEW>ALL FRAMES it will then turn the monitor into your production monitor, ready for color correcting your footage.
46 comments:
Nice one Shane. Huge money saver, and the result look convincing from here.
Jude
Hey Shane. Looks slick.
I do a lot of broadcast VFX and Motion graphics, and no footage capture (at least right now).
Currently, I don't have any way to check my stuff on a TV. But I'd love to. I've been putting off getting something like a Kona3 and a monitor... but I get all panicy when I think of the $$$. :|
I already work on one 24" ACD. So if I were to get another and use this matrox box, would I be able to use it as a second monitor on my system as well?
Or would the Matrox MXO prevent me from using it as anything but an output monitor for FCP or After Effects?
Well, not necessarily. With your monitor connected to the MXO, it still passes thru a desktop image, so you can have dual monitors. But when you hit VIEW>ALL FRAMES it will then turn the monitor into your production monitor, ready for color correcting your footage.
I'm adding this to the post. This is important info.
Nice. I think I understand now.
This sounds like a great setup... and one that would leave me with more desk space to boot.
Now I'm curious how drastic the difference is between the standard ADC image I'm used to looking at vs. the MXO'd ADC image. It's hard to tell much with the one picture.
Any chance we could get a second pic, with the same CRT image, but using the standard ADC connection? I'll bet we could discern the relative difference between the two more accurately.
Hi Shane,
Does the MXO output DVCPRO HD 720p24?
James
I'm not sure what you mean exactly. You want me to connect the ACD to my laptop directly, without the MXO in between, and show you what the image would look like if I use Digital Cinema Display to show the full image? There is no way you can tell with a photo...need to see it in person. But I can tell you that you have increased artifacting and the colors are off.
Awesome. We'll definitely be getting one of these. I was waiting for a reliable independent review of doing just this very thing. Thanks for posting your experience!
Yes James, it outputs DVCPRO HD 720p24. DVCPRO HD outputs at 59.94fps....no matter if it is 60p or 24p.
All my tests were done with DVCPRO HD 720p24 at 23.98fps.
This is great news, Shane. I had followed your purchase of the Sony production monitor months back, and considered getting a production monitor for myself, but the costs were really high (and that little Sony in particular is hard to find!).
This could solve my problems...plus I already have a 23" ACD ready to go (but no callibration equipment).
Thanks for doing the tests.
P.S. How's your FInal Cut Creative Cow DVD going?
DVD will be out by NAB. Trying to get some ready for pre-sales. You are top of the list Helmut.
Yes..if you already have an ACD, this is a very valuable box.
Great, looking forward to it, Shane!
Hey Shane,
Could you try this for me? DVCProHD 1080p to the MXO. I think it would work, because it is still running on top of a 59.94 signal like 720p. I'm curious because I haven't seen this listed as being supported
I don't have 1080p DVCPRO HD footage. Well, I do, but it was captured from the XL H1, and at 29.97, not 23.98. And I don't own the HVX-200.
Lemme see what I can do.
Nice review. I just bought the MXO and have to get my ACD calibated. I don't have a friend with the software. Any budget solutions here?
Also: there's one issue with my G5 Quad that Matrox is aware of and is not considered priority by the company.(told to me by tech support)The canvas (and occasionally the viewer) regularly repeats a few frames after you've left and returned to FCP -it's very annoying/distracting because you have these 2 or 3 frames repeating like mad. Hit Command-F12 twice and it disappears. For 1000 euro's I find this quite a flaw...
The tech guy said it will 'probably be fixed by the next release'.
Wolf
Budget? Not sure. I just bought the EYE ONE 2 and can't wait to calibrate all my monitors. When I get home. Being on the road is tough.
As for the frame repeat issue, I haven't seen that myself. Then again, I don't use the Matrox regularly. There are always little bugs to work out. They are just coming up on releasing version 2 of the software, so this is still relatively new. They'll work it out.
Hi shane and all,
I am very close to getting this, however forgive my confusion... I shoot on the HVX200 in 720p24PN mode. I was told that the PN mode once brought into final cut doesnt go out properly from the MXO.
But based on what everyone has said it would appear that going out 720p24p (from 24pn footage) would work...since it converts the signal going out to 59.94fps.
I hate to ask again, but this would be perfect for me if it will work with the PN footage from final cut.
Daniel
Daniel...this works fine. That is the EXACT footage I have and that I tested it with. Even though it is 23.98, it goes out of FCP at 59.94...and looks very clean.
What people don't always understand is that the DVCProHD format ALWAYS runs at 59.94 regardless of the editing time base (frame rate) of your footage. This is the nature of the format. What cameras like the HVX200 do is essentially cheat the format by only recording 23.98 fps onto the media. However, this is always on top of the 59.94 signal. I believe this is possible because you are recording onto P2 cards. If you shoot on tape, with either the Varicam or the HDX900, you are always recording 59.94 fps onto the tape. This is beacuse the tape itself runs at a constant speed of 59.94 fps. When you capture 23.98 footage from a DVCProHD tape, you have to remove the pulldown. Because DVCProHD is always sending out a 59.94 signal, whether you are working at 1080 or 720, the MXO knows how to deal with it.
What the MXO can't do is work with TRUE 23.98. Which means that not only is the frame rate 23.98, but the signal itself is 23.98. This is the case when working with HDCAM or D5 at 1080p. There are workarounds, which essentially involve capturing footage by using the DVCProHD codec instead of uncompressed 8 or 10 bit. The DVCProHD codec is so good that it is very hard to see the difference when doing a side-by-side comparison between it and uncompressed.
Just remember:
DVCProHD + MXO = does work
True 1080p23.98 + MXO =does not work
Hey again, You guys are awesome.Thanks so much Shane and Dan..Yes deep down I Know these things :) really...i just like hearing it said from people smarter then me ! I am off to go grab a MXO and rock out !
Cheers All,
Daniel (HVX200,M2 HD, Nikon Glass all the way)
Hi,
being on the road makes you miss out on the opportunities in the - soon-to-be deleted, I guess - posts above (about weight loss and ATM machines!).
I do have a question regarding ACD HD monitoring: do you think you can get the same amazing results with the Blackmagic Intensity card hooked up to an ACD that you get with the MXO?
Well Ben, you were right, they were short lived comments. People have time to sign in and post that? Whatever.
The Intensity card is HDMI output and input only. The Apple display does not do HDMI in...so that is out. The Intensity Pro has analog ins and out, but again, the Apple display is DVI in only. The Dell 2405 has component and composite Ins, but you can't set it up properly to bars.
The Intensity card will connect to an HDMI HD TV, but you can't set those up to bars...no tools to set up bars. BUT, the new MXO drivers give you this ability, and I'll be reviewing it very soon.
Hello Shane,
thanks for your answer. What I wonder is:
- HDMI and DVI are more or less the same thing, there is no conversion from one to the other, so you could buy an adapter for about 30 bucks and make the HDMI out of the Intensity a DVI-out - and then monitor it on an ADC or a Dell 24"... Right?
- Why cant you set up bars on the Dell lcd? Is it possible on the ADC?
Thanks
Question on calibration:
I just installed the latest MXO drivers on a brand new Mac Pro. All works find except the HD proc amp calibration. I can load the NTSC and PAL standard definition files, but when I try to load the HD calibration files I get a black screen.
Also, when I try to open those raw MXO configuration quicktimes in the quicktime player, the NTSC and PAL files open fine, but the HD files say quicktime is missing a component.
I also tried this on a new MacBook Pro, (which was different in that it had a Quicktime pro registration) and had the same problem.
I'm using Apple 23" display. Any suggestions? Thanks.
Steven Gonzales
Steven, you need to contact MATROX tech support for this...or go to the forum and ask. I have no idea what is going on.
http://forum.matrox.com/mxo/index.php
Hey Shane, great info here on the MXO!! How does it handle fields? Meaning would I see flicker in graphics or still pulled from video footage?
If you make a still image from interlaced footage, you'll see flicker. You'll need to add the deinterlaced filter. And if you are viewing interlaced footage, when you pause, you'll see the interlacing. But that is a GOOD thing...it means you are seeing it how it was meant to be seen. When you play, it will play smooth.
As for graphics, your graphics will look great.
amazing thanks a lot for this independant review...so valuable. Is the mxo also working with the 20" apple or you really need another 23"?
I haven't personally tried it, but I know that while it does work, there is scaling going on. The 23" monitors have a pixel ratio of 1920x1200...fine for displaying up to 1920x1080 (little black bars on top and bottom of screen), so you are seeing every pixel at full size. The 20" doesn't have this resolution, so the image will be down scaled, and not as good or reliable. It will work, but a 23" is much better.
Hi Shane,
My MXO arrived a week or so ago and I love it!
It's funny though in that I 'think' it's working in Mastering Mode for Shake. I guess I'm just too new to tell the difference. When I click on the Broadcast Monitor button (in Shake), I get an image through the MXO to my 23" ADC that continally updates as I mess with any node. Looks like it's working to me.
What am I missing here?
Tiziano...it is supposed to work with Shake and Motion and After Effects in mastering mode. So nothing is wrong.
It doesn't work with COLOR at this time, but they are working on that.
Cool!
I don't know where I read that it didn't do Shake.
Happily surprised!
These comments have been invaluable to me as is this whole site. I thank you for your comment.
Hey Shane,
Great review. One question: what gamma did you use on the ACD? 1.8 or 2.2?
Shane, can I ask. I have Mac Pro with NVIDIA graphics card. I have two Apple Cinema 23" displays as dual monitors. I want to get a Dell 24"and MXO to use for grading i.e. 3 monitors coming out of Mac Pro.
If I buy an AT1900XT graphics card and leave the NVIDIA in the Mac also, is it possible to have two Apple Cinema displays coming from the two DVI ports on the ATI graphics card, then the MXO to Dell coming from one of the single DVI ports on the NVIDIA card?
Anonymous (please at least sign your name or handle guys so I know what to call you),
You can run two graphics cards in a mac pro and use one for the MXO. This is exactly what Matrox did at NAB on their demo machine. Since all the slots are PCIe (right?) then it should go right in.
Hi Shayne, just a question - would FCP and mxo function if i were to use the new cineform codec for mac?
either in FCP or the new premier pro 3
Thanks again
Sorry man, that is a question for Matrox. I haven't a clue.
Hey Shane can the Matrox MXO also hook up to a production monitor as well as the 23" at the same time.
Yes jc4me, you can. I demo'd that just last week. DVI to the ACD, and Component to my HD CRT.
hey Shane im also posting in the FCP forum on apple.com/support so this might look the same.
when im only grading SD and want to use a production monitor, could i have it set up like use the two 23" apples one going out of the GFX card the other one coming out of the MXO and also coming out of the MXO would be a composite signal to the production monitor, would that be a problem.
now for what im trying to do what makes more sense, i have about $2200 i can spend, get the MXO with another 23" and a production monitor, or just get a Decklink and a production monitor and everything will be going out composite though and the HD will not be a problem????
Thanks for all your help so far Shane
hey shane,
thanks for your nice review:
The features of this box are really intriguing even though it is oneway only (output). I work with a MBP (ati card) FCP 6.0.2. We are shooting with the EX1 XDCAM HD 35 mbit.
The only issue that I see for the moment with the MXO is the missing Timecode.
I am giving a .omf to the soundmixer with a TC reference to match the image TC in order to sync both of course and I have to deliver on Digi Beta SD.
If I would have a Beta recorder with a TC Generator, is it possible to overwrite the TC without deleting/overwriting the image? I could then regenerate a new TC starting on the first image of my edit at 10:00:00:00 for example and the mixer can start to work, and I am done.
Especially because I would have to deliver later on a final Master to the TV-Network which matches their delivery requirements (starting TC @ ..., and so on)
or are there other possible workflows?
thanks for your ideas,
felix
Sorry Felix, I am lost as to what you are asking. You want to do what exactly with TC? Output a QT file with visible code? Or a tape with visible code? Then use the TIMECODE READER filter in the VIDEO FILTERS>VIDEO section of FCP.
DO you mean deck control? The ability to insert video at a specific timecode? Well then, all you need is a USB>Serial Adapter (Belkin makes one) and an RS-422 cable That works fine.
Or...what do you mean?
hey shane,
thanks for you prompt reply even though you must be quiet busy for the moment ;)!
I want to playout my edit with a specific timecode to a digi beta deck.
That would be my FCP sequence timecode.
I guess I would need the (belkin) adapter you are writing about. do you have any reference?
An insert edit would be fine, I just would have to black the tape with a generated TC and then do an insert edit (at 10:00:00:00 f.ex.), then playout via FCP/MXO.
That would be wonderful.
Hey Shane
Thanks for posting all this info. It's great to get feedback from someone who uses the MXO all the time.
I was just wondering how frame accurate the MXO is. I know Matrox say it is. I've used so many different systems (FCP with various firewire breakout converters, avid adrenalines, etc) and the thing that always annoys me is the lag between my workspace and my viewing monitors, and the slight keyboard lag issuing commands. I work fast on the keyboard and I need the system to be super-responsive. I haven't had this since the old avid media composers and sometimes on the top-line FCP systems with dedicated PCI cards.
At the moment I've regressed and just use a standard mac pro and two ACDs, one switched to preview mode as this is rock solid sync-wise and speed-wise. I just offline edit, so although colour fidelty is handy it's not a necessity. Though playing interlaced would be nice.
Can the MXO deliver this elusive frame accuracy and speed? And if so, would it be able to do it simultaneously to an ACD and a SDI flatscreen?
Best, and thanks again for all your info.
Tom.
http://www.tomlindsay.co.uk
The MXO is very frame accurate. 0 Frame offset. But this is true with any capture card. When you monitor via firewire there will always be a lag. That is the nature of Firewire. Just like the Avid of old, and the higher end new ones, having a dedicated capture card means no lag. AJA, Decklink , MXO all do this.
And with the MXO you can send a full HD signal to your ACD, as well as a downconverted SD signal to an SD monitor or TV...simultaneously.
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