CAPTURING HDV AS PRORES...VIA FIREWIRE
Before I go into this, if you haven't read Chris Poisson's article at the Creative Cow on how to capture HDV as ProRes 422 via firewire please do so now.
I'll wait.
...
Alright, let's talk about what I am doing now.
I have been hired to edit a 5-10 min "Teaser" for a documentary...a teaser that will be used as a fund raising tool to solicit more money to finish shooting and editing this documentary. This documentary was shot on HDV at 1080i 29.97 using the Sony VU1 HDV camera...with another one as b-camera, and at one point a small DV camera for minor pickup shots. When I mix the footage, I might treat the DV to look really grainy or something else to set it apart. That I captured natively with my DSR-11 deck. But the HDV footage I have set about capturing as ProRes via firewire. And thus far (on the second to last tape...it is finishing the encode as I type) it has been pretty smooth.
I rented a Sony HVR-1500 deck that is FLUSH with connections. Yes, I could have captured via HD SDI or HD Component...but because I am running an older Dual 2.0Ghz G5 (PPC), I can't capture it as ProRes via my Kona LH. You can only capture as ProRes with a capture card if you are running an Intel Mac. And I don't want to capture as DVCPRO HD...the old way of dealing with HDV...because I'd lose some resolution. Sony HDV is 1440x1080 (anamorphic)...and DVCPRO HD at 1080 is 1280x1080...I'd be losing 200 lines of resolution! Well, that's just not acceptable, not with ProRes out there. And ever since the FCP 6.0.2 update, you can capture HDV as ProRes via firewire even if you are running and older PPC Mac, like I am. How cool is that? Pretty cool in my book.
Now...my first question was...why ProRes and not the higher quality ProRes HQ? Well, when I captured a couple short clips and compared...I couldn't see any difference. Yes, I used my HD CRT to judge them. I'm guessing that this is because the HDV format is already highly compressed...and that the HQ ProRes is for higher end HD formats like HDCAM and HDCAM SR...where you can tell the difference. And because ProRes was 15.1MB/s and ProRes HQ was 22.3MB/s...I opted for the lower bit rate one...since there was no visible difference. And the Caldigit S2VR Duo that I am capturing this footage to is handling it all beautifully. (FYI, I wil be backing up all of this footage onto my homemade RAID tower, that has been designated as footage backup.)
So as the article describes, when I start capturing, the actual capture window does lag behind by 33%. And it plays back in slow motion...this is I wager is because it is transcoding HDV into ProRes. So to monitor the footage, I connected the deck to the HD CRT via the SUPER out, so I could see timecode. When the tape ends, I press stop, and then the system takes about 30-45 min to finish the encode. This would be shorter on a faster Mac, I am sure.
And as advertised it breaks up the footage at the start and stop points on the camera. When the tape is full of interviews, that is fine. There are about 1-4 clips to deal with. But when we are talking about b-roll and scenings...suddenly I have 65 clips to deal with. But, this is no different than with P2...footage is broken up at the camera start and stops. While I might be used to this, it doesn't mean that I like it. I don't...I really really don't. I like my b-roll of the desert and the desert sunset to be in 10-20 min chunks, not 5 sec to 1.5 min bits and pieces strew about. This makes scrubbing thru footage a BIG hassle. I'll probably end up linking them all together either as a sequence, or more likely as a self contained QT file. Although that is dangerous, as the new QT file won't contain the original tape timecode. Gah..what a pain!
So I do what the article states, delete the CLIPS (not the media, just highlight the clips and press delete) from the Browser and then on the finder level in the Capture Scratch folder, open and rename the footage more descriptively. Then re-import that into FCP and organize it.
NOTE: There are a couple issues with this workflow that I'd like to point out. When you capture this footage, FCP does not assign it a reel number. This is a pretty important piece of info to have on the clip. Fixing that is simple enough, just add it in the Browser. You'll be warned that you are "Changing the source timecode on the file," that's fine...just click OK.
Hmmm...this brings up a concern. When you do this capture, you do it pretty much as a CAPTURE NOW. Roll the tape and let it go. There is no LOG AND CAPTURE, no place to add REEL numbers. So let's say that you lose a drive, and your footage is lost. How will you get it back? With logging and capturing, simply BATCH CAPTURE your footage and it will reconnect in the Browser and timeline. But with this method, CAN you batch capture? Because of the camera starts and stops will the recapture start on the exact same first frame and last frame? If you have to recapture the footage and try to reconnect it that way, how can you assure that you get the same TC start and end times...and the same clip names?
The more I think about it...the more this workflow makes me nervous. This is why I am backing up my footage.
I think if I have the time, I will also capture the footage (only 8 tapes) via HD SDI as DVCPRO HD 1080i 29.97 and see how things look. At least with this format, I can log and capture, label my clips, assign reel numbers as I capture, have the ability to capture the b-roll as one long clip. And piece of mind that I can re-capture via "batch capture" in case footage is lost.
Sometimes I think slight loss in quality might be preferable when it comes to a proven stable workflow. We'll see...still figuring this out. What are your thoughts about this?



16 comments:
I'm a little confused. I know when you capture HDV you get a bit of a different log and capture window. But did the one that popped up not have a place for a reel number? That totally defeats the purpose of a tape based system! Interesting.
I think I'm with you in that I might suffer a bit of quality loss with DVCPRO HD just to get timecode and longer capture (I feel your pain on the broll thing). Plus, I wonder if you'd see a different in ProRes and DVCPRO HD anyway. Probably not after it goes to a standard def DVD!
Hey Scott.
When you set up everything the way the article shows, when you hit Apple-8, you are only given the option to type in a name. Look at the article, it shows you a picture of it. HDV CAPTURE...and a place for a name only. I typed in the tape name "EK-A01" and then had a slew of clips that were EK-A01, EK-A01-2, EK-A01-3 and so on. Delete those clips from the browser, rename them on the finder level, then reimport the clips into FCP. But yeah, only option is clip name.
I am going back and logging and capturing a tape as DVCPRO HD 1080i 29.97 and am going to compare it to the ProRes version. I doubt that I'd see much difference, and the fact that at this point it is ending up on DVD only...I should have done this from the start. I just wanted to test the new workflow out. If I had a MacPro I would capture ProRes with the capture card. But I am not sure this firewire workflow is worth the potential issues it causes.
I might end up capturing everything as DVCPRO HD...since I have the space and the deck until noon tomorrow.
Shane-
What about the Capture as Native HDV Method, and then using Compressor to convert the clips to ProRes?
Yes, I realize this is a pretty long transcode to send to Compressor (it would require a test to see just how much time you're talking about), but I would imagine for a project of this nature, you may have the luxury of doing the transcode overnight?
This way, you get your full Log and Capture experience, transcode overnight, and then dupe your project and relink to the new ProRes material. Also, you have a ready made backup with your HDV materials (could move 'em to your backup volume at your convenience).
I just don't see how suffering a rez hit (going to DVCPro HD) is the true way to go...
... or maybe I'm missing something (?)....
-Christian Glawe
This is not going to be on the BIG screen. This is going to DVD, so capturing as DVCPRO HD doesn't concern me. If this was going to HDCAM for air...I would consider a couple things.
1) Getting a MacPro and Kona 3 or LHe and capturing as ProRes via the card.
2) Capturing Native HDV and then setting my sequence render settings to ProRes. Possibly. I'll test this. But what I don't like about this is, again, the tape is broken up on every start and stop of the camera. I HATE that...That is one of the drawbacks of P2 that I hate. This makes scanning thru footage very tedious.
But seriously, having captures as DVCPRO HD and comparing that to the ProRes, I am not seeing much difference. And I am playing this back not only on my HD CRT, but component to my Panasonic 42" Plasma...just to check. But I am sure when it comes time to color correct that I'll see the hit. But, when I get to that point, I'll make the render settings ProRes. The DCVPRO HD codec is very nice, it only has issues when rendering out 8-bit. So I'll wager rendering as ProRes will be fine.
But, this is all a good test. As this isn't intended for High End HD delivery, but for DVD only.
Gotcha...
I should probably read a little more carefully before posting late at night... since you're going to DVD, then yes.. DVCPro HD should be plenty adequate.
Good luck with the project, Shane - let us know how it goes!
-Christian Glawe
"2) Capturing Native HDV and then setting my sequence render settings to ProRes. Possibly. I'll test this. But what I don't like about this is, again, the tape is broken up on every start and stop of the camera. I HATE that."
Shane, you can toggle this off for HDV tape captures in the log/capture window under the Clip Settings tab. It's nice to have the option to do it either way.
As to ProRes for the sequence render codec, I've been pretty happy with that option for most projects.
Matt Jeppsen
FreshDV
Log & Capture is a must, in my mind, for backing up your projects. Sure, you can keep your drives full of media, but what about long term archiving? A DVD with your project files, images, and a few sound files and the tapes is a great way to hold onto things for a while.
So, yes, I'd be leery of a system that does not allow you to Batch Capture. If you find a way around this problem, however, that would be cool!
~Luke
Or another possibility - why not capture native HDV, but use the "Render to ProRes" option? Or put it on a ProResHQ timeline so everything that requires it would render to that?
If I recall correctly, 1080p24 HDV would play back in real time on my dual 2.0 GHz G5. If you're rendering to that codec, one stream is all you play back, and if your box can play back HDV, you should be good to go...right?
It would be faster (no transcode), have reels, allow log and capture, and be more efficient with your disk space utilization. Source footage if untouched is still pristine source, not re-rendered, and anything that needs rendering gets rendered to a better codec - win/win, right?
-mike of hdforindies.com
"why not capture native HDV, but use the "Render to ProRes" option?"
Because I didn't want to deal with the long render times associated with HDV. I know that I would be rendering it as ProRes, but still, would not that transcode require a longer render? I guess I should test that sometime and see what times I get. I just really like the RT I get with DVCPRO HD.
"Or put it on a ProResHQ timeline so everything that requires it would render to that?"
I didn't want to render all the time. Unless you mean at the end when I am all done. Yeah, I could have done that. Nice thing about FCP, so many plausible workflows to choose from.
"If I recall correctly, 1080p24 HDV would play back in real time on my dual 2.0 GHz G5"
Oh, totally. It's so highly compressed, you could play it back without problems. And depending on the RAID you have, you might get more than one stream.
"Source footage if untouched is still pristine source, not re-rendered, and anything that needs rendering gets rendered to a better codec - win/win, right?"
True....true. Leave it to you to point out great solutions and great workflows. I might have to go this route next time.
Interesting idea to leave the footage as HDV and only render to ProRes. My wonder would be if there would be any, even tiny, shift in the quality level from HDV to ProRes. Usually the ProRes would be on a totally different clip but say you had a filter on only part of a clip I wonder if you would see some difference..... like a dissolve. Of course if you are placing a filter on a clip it is probably changing it for a reason. I'll try this next time I get some HDV across the desk.
While there may well be a quality difference when using ProRes as the HDV render codec (I frankly haven't taken the time to test this), I think the main reason is simply speed related. Using ProRes as the sequence codec renders much faster than long-GOP.
Matt Jeppsen
FreshDV
SO capturing as HDV, but rendering as ProRes is quick? Good to know. I hope to avoid HDV as much as possible, but when I can't...good to know.
I am capturing HDV as proress 422 HQ 10801 2997 via firewire and a few minutes in fcp just quits and disappears off the screen, it actually crashes FCP but no error comes up saying it quit....the capture window says it is in real time.......no idea why it keeps crashing....normal proress prores HQ 10801 2997 works but i need it HQ
Try non-HQ. They look the same, and if you are converting HDV to ProRes, there is no reason to go HQ. All the footage I captured I captured as regular ProRes...although I did capture as HQ to see what the difference is.
No difference.
Hi Shane,
Firstly, I have been following your blog for a while now, and would like to thank you and fellow posters for some great tips and info.
Concerning this workflow. I'm definitely too much of a scaredy cat to risk losing batch capture possibilities, and like you, would get very irritated by having thousands of clips automatically created. So it seems that the 'render to prores' option is the strongest. This retains the ability to recapture in a disaster, and helps rendering times while editing. However, my problem is that I'm often exporting WIP edits as quicktimes to be reviewed on the web, or DVD's for offline approval etc. When it comes to exporting these formats I get some seriously long export times due, I think, to still having HDV footage in the timeline. Do you have any suggestions for avoiding these painful exports? Or would you suggest the conversion of all rushes to Prores, thus ensuring matching TC with the original footage, and faster editing, rendering AND export times? I may be answering my own question as I write this but I would love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks
Joe
Joe...
I personally would capture HDV as DVCPRO HD, and I have. To do this you need a capture card. Yes, you will lose a few lines of horizontal resolution (180 lines...1440 to 1280), but it is MUCH easier to work with...fast render times.
But, I don't work with HDV much...
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